Curse

LexTalionis · Mar 07, 2012, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Well you could give your Mesmers Silencing weapons, which would make FD's Daze last 4s, and then Extend (give it high spec) would make it ~10s or perhaps more on the first cast. I dunno, maybe.

I like the concept, but I'm deeply skeptical about using an Assassin to inflict Dazed. It might be just anti-melee bias, but yeah. Dazed is just really hard to inflict.

Well, it's not just the Daze, tbh. Current Assassin single target dps is really a few levels higher than what an Elementalist or a Mesmer can put out, which is why it works so well with AP. Of course, you still have to deal with idiotic pathing AI - in Glint's today, Anton pathed across an entire map and aggroed 3 groups, for example.

Chthon · Mar 07, 2012, 05:00 PM // 17:00

If you're using a sin to inflict dazed, why not Temple Strike instead?

Daesu · Mar 07, 2012, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

@Daesu: I have a silly theory behind Rupture. When monsters attack me, the backline usually stays put while the frontline rushes forwards, it therefore follows that anything within range of Rupture (which only ever gets used if something is in range of the spirits) is a melee enemy (or the rare point-blank elementalist), which tend to cluster around spirits. At that point, hitting them with a 10 second blind that gets extended into 30 seconds is probably going to prevent more damage than shelter ever could.

So far, I've not had significant problems with the theory - although if I took out SoGM, I probably wouldn't be as quick to include Rupture.

Don't get me wrong, I have used Rupture before and I like it as a source of blind. But I am unsure if it is worth it to be used with Shelter, afterall blind doesn't stop casters, and Shelter is more universally useful.

Usually a 75% blocking from Displacement is enough protection from physical attacks for me. Shelter and heals can easily mop up the rest of the damage from physical attacks even without blind.

In your case, I think daze is the more interesting condition to maintain.

EFGJack · Mar 07, 2012, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Disclaimer: I acknowledge not everyone brings protection to Hard Mode and it is their right, and I hope that those who do not bring protective abilities acknowledge that there are people who enjoy playing it safe, and won't get too offensive over this discussion.

With that said - on to my views on this matter: assuming your ST has the attributes set to 14 Communing and 13 Spawning Power, no Spirit Boon Strike or Armor of Unfeeling, Displacement will block 7,1 (8) attacks before it's destruction. Ye common mob is usually composed of 5 monsters of which all are attacking assuming none of them are carrying ashes and their average attack speed in hard mode is ~1,32 seconds (HM wand/staff/hammer (1-33/100)*1,75 divided by (HM axe/sword (1-33/100)*1,33). This means that a Displacement won't last much longer than 4-6 seconds in the possible event where all the monsters are 1) attacking and 2) all attacks are blocked (time of travel, snares, knockdowns should be taken into account). Needless to say that a ST rit with 3 charges won't be maintaining both Shelter and Displacement for the time it takes to dispose the group.
On my Mesmer I use three ritualists (ST, SoGM, SoS) and I have enough spirits to afford Rupture, and I deem it worthy as Displacement is only good for little time. On my warrior I use a Soul Twisting Rit in the harder areas but it's more of a safety net than a mean to protect my backline from the enemies, I prevent the possible damage income by other means.

With the numbers above it's safe and dare I say smart to bring Rupture Soul as a mean to protect the backline against Melee. It's more reliable (in the absence of enemy condition removal!) than Displacement - excluding the initial brunt AND assuming they get hit by Rupture Soul the instant they start swinging on your backline.
What I'm saying is that it's a matter of taste and it can hardly be disputed: Whether Rupture Soul or Displacement is the better choice for you completely depends on how you play, at what level of skill you play and what kind of a build you use. I bet it's safe to assume that LexTalionis knows that in his build, Rupture Soul prevents more damage than Soul Twist'd Displacement, and from which one can only draw conclusions about the speed of killing and backline's exposure to attacks.

Edit: Displacement is especially pulling it's weight against shadowstepping foes (e.g. some WoC foes that are quite nasty on HM if left unattended), and that effetiveness is hard to calculate with numbers, but it's not a bad idea to have both Displacement (or Aegis) and Rupture Soul against them.

Numbers from
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spirit
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Attack_rate

Daesu · Mar 07, 2012, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

...

Like I said, I like Rupture Soul but unless I micro it, I don't know if the AI would pick the right spirit to Rupture. Would it Rupture Shelter? Since Shelter is the only spirit that the Rupture rit brings it may very well be the closest spirit to the rit for Rupture. If it does Rupture Shelter often then is that worthwhile (even though the rit should be able to re-cast Shelter in most situations there is still a cost)? Bringing alternative physical shutdown in this game is really not that difficult. I am just weighing the cost of bringing Rupture and questioning if it is worthwhile with that skill bar.

By the way, I don't usually bring Union with my ST rit so I save ST charges for only Shelter and Displacement.

EFGJack · Mar 07, 2012, 08:38 PM // 20:38

I haven't done any experiments with Rupture Soul, so I'll have to assume that heroes will use it on any spirit that is on the range of the threat. If heroes are aware of spirits' health levels and if they are smart enough to use it on the spirit with the lowest health %age is beyond me. It can be tested with low attributes in an area with little to no threat from enemies, though.
I have never used Rupture as a player - if you target an enemy and use Rupture, does it detonate the spirit closest to your target or will it give you an error message: invalid target? If it's the former it's logical that heroes use it in that manner, and if it's the latter I bet five gold that heroes target a spirit closest to the monster they want to deal damage to. I can test these during the coming weekend but you can be my guest if you want to test it out yourself.

And to answer your question: Shelter will be the target of Rupture if it's the spirit closest to the enemy, unless there's some code that ruptures any spirit that's on range of the target regardless of proximity.

LexTalionis · Mar 07, 2012, 09:05 PM // 21:05

I acknowledge that Rupture really isn't everyone's cup of tea, it just works well for me, and more reliably than Ineptitude (the other prime choice of 10 second blinds). The AI usage of it is fairly simple - as soon as there's viable targets that will get hit by it, it'll use the skill. It definitely does not use the skill "Responsibly". But Rupture is not a weak skill - for 122 damage to a nearby radius every 5 seconds, it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. If something is close enough to my Shelter user to get hit by Rupture, I want it blinded as a top priority.

It'll be easier to understand with a picture - Here's an example of a typical triple pull for Echo AP Mes:

Properly done, all enemies should clump around your EBVAS and Anton and Rupture will never have to be used. Spirits have been dumped behind my character, offscreen, and my Rits generally don't move far from that spot. The instant a fox breaks through your front ranks and starts wailing on your chickens though, everything kind of gets a lot more chaotic. WoC Assassins and Warriors are a high priority for me when they target my backrow - they have an obnoxiously high critical and damage rate on 60 AL heroes. When this happens, I like having a "Safe Zone" to retreat into - if a melee starts wailing on me, all I have to do is run into the SoS wall and Rupture will happen.

Shelter still keeps semi-reliable because Hero AI for the ST rit (without any PBAoEs) is hardcoded never to stand next to any enemy if possible. This is easy to see if you try using ST and Rupture offensively on training dummies - you literally have to actively flag your ST rit directly on top of a training dummy in order to get them to drop a spirit there. Most of the time, the ST rit picks a SoGM or SoS spirit to blow up because their bars have offensive skills that require them to be closer to the enemy to cast, and therefore they usually drop spirits quite a bit closer to the enemy pack.

So why not Temple Strike? This is actually rather a good question. My answer is that Temple Strike is kinda a bit slower and only one step removed from Spear Swipe (not much of an answer.). I also enjoy the fact that Beguiling Haze is the fastest recharging Shadowstep around, which adds a lot of imminence to AP. Still, Temple Strike could work, but I'll have to see how the AI prioritises Temple Strike. Thank you for the suggestion.

Edit: Btw, I'd just like to point out the AI WILL use Rupture even if it's set to passive mode. In fact, Passive mode is probably why the ST rit usually sits apart from the rest of the team.

Daesu · Mar 07, 2012, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Another thing to test with Rupture Soul is whether the AI would continue to use Rupture Soul with other spirits, on already blinded enemies, just based on the damage from Rupture Soul.

I asked because of a comment in the discussion page for hero usage of this skill:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Talk:Rupture_Soul

I don't know how reliable that comment is, but definitely worth checking out if you want to equip your hero with this.

Jeydra · Mar 07, 2012, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Well, it's not just the Daze, tbh. Current Assassin single target dps is really a few levels higher than what an Elementalist or a Mesmer can put out, which is why it works so well with AP. Of course, you still have to deal with idiotic pathing AI - in Glint's today, Anton pathed across an entire map and aggroed 3 groups, for example.

In which case, if you're already using one Assassin, why not commit a second melee with associated buffs (Barbs, SoH, Splinter, etc)?

LexTalionis · Mar 08, 2012, 12:22 AM // 00:22

@Daesu: It will. It doesn't care about the blind condition as much as the damage, so that's definitely one thing to be cautious about - although I have to say that most of the time, I'd rather take the extra AoE damage. The main thing is that Rupture Soul is in Spawning Power and not Channeling, so it's a nice way of actually having the ST dedicated ritualist do something relevant to help with kill-speed that doesn't get in the way of Shelter (The other nice option is Explosive Growth, but that doesn't always work well with AP)

If you want a Spawning Power skill that heroes actually use halfway intelligently, Spirit to Flesh is pretty good at that. Heroes won't use it unless your entire party needs a massive amount of healing, which is what it does. I just dislike the AoE, it'd be nicer if it was within Earshot range.

@Jeydra: I'm actually testing that out but I have yet to find a happy medium. I'm getting closer to finding that semi-perfect balance though. I doubt we're ever getting old Invoke back, so Assassins are a half-assed compromise - even Searing Flames and Discord have issues with putting out the 70 or so Single target DPS an Assassin can do now. It's not particularly good at AoE, but strangely, I rarely find this a problem given the rate at which I can churn out EVASes (the faster I can kill, the more EVASes I can spam).

Jeydra · Mar 08, 2012, 02:19 PM // 14:19

I gave the concept some hard thinking and I came up with something like this:

Standard MM
SoS Rit without Resto heals, but Splinter, Destruction, Fall Back and Lamentation <-> Painful Bond
Standard SoGM
Incendiary Arrows Ranger with Sundering / Penetrating Attack, Poison Tip Signet, Go For The Eyes
Beguiling Haze Assacaster with Deadly Arts skills and Unseen Fury + Swap
EC Resto Mesmer
?

If you look at it there are neat synergies everywhere, e.g. Swap can bring Destruction in for an easy Rupture Soul AoE spike, the IA Ranger with Poison Tip Signet can bring poison for Signet of Toxic Shock, Go For The Eyes can help the Assassin manage energy, the EC Resto can easily bring 12+ points into Inspiration and pump up Daze duration, the optional character can bring Weaken Armour / Shell Shock etc and have the EC Resto Extend it over an entire mob, which fuels Body Shot on the Ranger for bonus energy management.

... etc. But I think the build's too contrived, and am not certain at all it will be better than the standard. A lot depends on the Assassin's ability to keep healing from getting through, because otherwise the builds I'm used to running are already armed to the teeth in terms of damage, and the only way to get even more damage out of them is to stop healing from going off. A lot also depends on AI usage of skills. Does the AI know to swap Destruction after it shadowsteps in? I've not tested and have no idea.

Have you considered a D/A instead of the Assassin? You can put stuff like Rending Aura / Staggering Force on it, get some extra Cracked Armour for Extend, or just rely on Aura Slicer. 9 points Shadow Arts hits 7s duration on Beguiling Haze, extended to 9s by Silencing mod if necessary, but high spec Extend Conditions ought to be able to work with 7s Beguiling Haze. Anyone got a reasonable damage-oriented Dervish build that doesn't take secondary + can afford to spec 9 points into Shadow Arts?

EDIT: for that matter why not consider an E/A with PBAoE, or W/A with Hundred Blades, or Rt/A with Cruel was Daoshen, or even N/A Dark Aura teardown? Go touchers?

mortenya · Mar 08, 2012, 04:58 PM // 16:58

i doubt that the AI would swap in destruction, i think that is just a bit much for it.

W/A couldn't have 100b and Beguiling Haze, there is potential for the others, but i'm not sure about derv, since they aren't good with teardowns.

LexTalionis · Mar 08, 2012, 07:44 PM // 19:44

@Jeydra:

That's a pretty good point - Beguiling isn't exclusive to Assassins, so it would work even on other classes. The problem is that taking it would consume the elite slot. One problem is that the shadowstep itself is semi important, I could possibly do E/P with spear swipe and fit in starburst, but then he'd have problems getting in close to do the daze, and daze isn't very hot without the assassins since you need constant attacks to stop any casting from going off. I really need to sit down and compare the DPS of a starburster to an assassin - could you help me list the highest DPS Hero builds you know? Excluding MMs and SoGM, of course.

I liked the idea of barrage and incendiary because they can help with the AoE interruption, but the nice thing about beguiling + extend is that it already makes casters implode. That pic I posted is my testing area because it's full of really annoying Jade Brotherhood mesmers with Expel Hexes (a textbook area for "places where AP and FD have problems") and if you wait for beguiling and dazespam to go off before you start the AP chain, everything usually works really well. I've never really met a monk enemy so far that could survive beguiling (another benefit of AP arcane echo + daze is that if I need to lock down two monks permanently, I can throw one EVAS at each of them)

I'm not really sure if the AI is intelligent enough to swap in Destruction. It'd be really nice if it was, but I doubt they'd have programmed that in. What if I dumped Destruction on the Assassin instead? That might actually work.

Edit: Actually, weird idea, but how about a hero that's sole function is to shadowstep into a monster pack and drop SoS so that your backline can instantly hit all 3 spirits with rupture soul? We're talking about 420 nearby-ranged AoE damage here in 0.75 seconds...

Edit edit: Just tested with myself - Symbolic posture, SoS, a Shadowstep and a bunch of throwaway 5e spirits are completely hilarious. Probably not very practical since you need to herd and tank, but running 3 ST Rupture ritualists is freaking funny. Rupture's biggest benefit is it has a 5 second recharge (4s with ghostly haste).

Jeydra · Mar 09, 2012, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Ok different question, but one that should've been asked at the outset: what is there to gain from Beguiling Haze + Extend Conditions that you can't gain from Panic?

Seems to me the only real benefit is you can spread along Cracked Armour and Deep Wound, but that's something Extend Conditions does, not Beguiling. The fact that you no longer have to interrupt your target helps, but then as an AP caster you have YMLAD, and Iron Palm from the Assassin if you need it. There's hex removal, but you can draw out the hex removal with more hexes on your team. With longer cooldown on Beguiling and the fact that you need a 2-skill combo to pull off AoE shutdown, why not just run Panic and free up more slots on your team?

That Rupture Soul idea sounds interesting though, especially since you no longer need Beguiling so you have a free elite.

LexTalionis · Mar 10, 2012, 05:16 AM // 05:16

@Jeydra:
I don't take YMLAD, only FH on dual EVAS. Could try YMLAD, I guess, but GDW for the assassin would probably give me better results.

As for Haze, the main bonus is that dazed automatically doubles spellcasting time in addition to doing the easily interrupted nonsense - that alone makes it difficult to remove itself. It is also hard to remove because it's almost always covered by blind. Panic doesn't do nuts on single targets (Technically, extend isn't so hot on singles either, but Daze still retains its effectiveness.) It also goes hand in hand with Blind, and a target that's both Dazed and Blinded is more or less ignorable for the rest of the battle.

I think the easiest way to compare the difference is that Panic is limited to the targets you hit when you cast the spell. Extend sort of infects every single target it hits and turns it into a potential carrier for spreading more daze/blind regardless of where they run around later. Most condition removal doesn't really do nuts to Extend. The difference between Panic and Daze is also really obvious when dealing with defensive enemy casters - Daze makes enemy monks implode, Panic barely fazes them.

The other thing about Beguiling is that it's a shadowstep. Imagine EVAS without shadowsteps - it'd be pretty bad. Shadowsteps add a needed element of immediacy to your AP chain and help ball targets directly around your assassin by throwing them out in front of the rest of your party so that you can keep enemy melee and casters close to each other. It's one of the best ways of balling enemies you can get if you're playing a caster and don't want to ball yourself.

DRGN · Mar 10, 2012, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I gave the concept some hard thinking and I came up with something like this:

Standard MM
SoS Rit without Resto heals, but Splinter, Destruction, Fall Back and Lamentation <-> Painful Bond
Standard SoGM
Incendiary Arrows Ranger with Sundering / Penetrating Attack, Poison Tip Signet, Go For The Eyes
Beguiling Haze Assacaster with Deadly Arts skills and Unseen Fury + Swap
EC Resto Mesmer
?

If you look at it there are neat synergies everywhere, e.g. Swap can bring Destruction in for an easy Rupture Soul AoE spike, the IA Ranger with Poison Tip Signet can bring poison for Signet of Toxic Shock, Go For The Eyes can help the Assassin manage energy, the EC Resto can easily bring 12+ points into Inspiration and pump up Daze duration, the optional character can bring Weaken Armour / Shell Shock etc and have the EC Resto Extend it over an entire mob, which fuels Body Shot on the Ranger for bonus energy management.

... etc. But I think the build's too contrived, and am not certain at all it will be better than the standard. A lot depends on the Assassin's ability to keep healing from getting through, because otherwise the builds I'm used to running are already armed to the teeth in terms of damage, and the only way to get even more damage out of them is to stop healing from going off. A lot also depends on AI usage of skills. Does the AI know to swap Destruction after it shadowsteps in? I've not tested and have no idea.

Have you considered a D/A instead of the Assassin? You can put stuff like Rending Aura / Staggering Force on it, get some extra Cracked Armour for Extend, or just rely on Aura Slicer. 9 points Shadow Arts hits 7s duration on Beguiling Haze, extended to 9s by Silencing mod if necessary, but high spec Extend Conditions ought to be able to work with 7s Beguiling Haze. Anyone got a reasonable damage-oriented Dervish build that doesn't take secondary + can afford to spec 9 points into Shadow Arts?

EDIT: for that matter why not consider an E/A with PBAoE, or W/A with Hundred Blades, or Rt/A with Cruel was Daoshen, or even N/A Dark Aura teardown? Go touchers?

There is, unfortunately, no Silencing scythe mod.

After fooling around a bit, I had some success with Beguiling Haze/Unseen Fury/Eremite's Attack/Zealous Sweep/Rending Sweep/Eremite's Zeal/Heart of Holy Flame/Heart of Fury on MOX. I found the Cracked Armor from Staggering/Rending/Aura Slicer to not be particularly worth it when you're already speccing 9 into another line and you can get it from Weaken Armor or something like that. I wanted to use Wearying Strike for long duration AoE Deep Wound, but the hero AI is just atrocious with teardowns and just gave himself weakness every time if he even got that much adrenaline. I found the biggest upside was Eremite's hitting all the Dazed foes at once and Heart of Holy Flames' long burns. Just make sure to micro Heart before battle.

Whether or not this is all worth it remains to be seen, I guess.

Jeydra · Mar 11, 2012, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

@Jeydra:
I don't take YMLAD, only FH on dual EVAS. Could try YMLAD, I guess, but GDW for the assassin would probably give me better results.

As for Haze, the main bonus is that dazed automatically doubles spellcasting time in addition to doing the easily interrupted nonsense - that alone makes it difficult to remove itself. It is also hard to remove because it's almost always covered by blind. Panic doesn't do nuts on single targets (Technically, extend isn't so hot on singles either, but Daze still retains its effectiveness.) It also goes hand in hand with Blind, and a target that's both Dazed and Blinded is more or less ignorable for the rest of the battle.

I think the easiest way to compare the difference is that Panic is limited to the targets you hit when you cast the spell. Extend sort of infects every single target it hits and turns it into a potential carrier for spreading more daze/blind regardless of where they run around later. Most condition removal doesn't really do nuts to Extend. The difference between Panic and Daze is also really obvious when dealing with defensive enemy casters - Daze makes enemy monks implode, Panic barely fazes them.

The other thing about Beguiling is that it's a shadowstep. Imagine EVAS without shadowsteps - it'd be pretty bad. Shadowsteps add a needed element of immediacy to your AP chain and help ball targets directly around your assassin by throwing them out in front of the rest of your party so that you can keep enemy melee and casters close to each other. It's one of the best ways of balling enemies you can get if you're playing a caster and don't want to ball yourself.

To be honest, I do not find this convincing. Single-target case is largely irrelevant because of the dual KDs and YMLAD (which imo is a better skill than FH - you should use it). I also don't see how Daze makes Monks implode while Panic barely fazes them, if you get a decent ball at least. Also in personal experience the best way to kill Monks is to bring in the enchantment removal and spike them out with EBVAS / YMLAD / FH.

To be fair the fact that Beguiling is a shadowstep counts against you, because you need to go to melee range. Unless you micro a defensive shadowstep or something, I can easily imagine situations where you don't want to go into melee range but still want to bring damage to bear.

"Whether or not this is all worth it remains to be seen, I guess." - this; I'm just not seeing it as worth it at the moment. I'd want to see a video or at least screenshots taken within a few seconds of each other to see how a mob can crumble to massed Daze.

I tried a variant of Daze + Extend vs. Bogroot Growths just now. It was really quite underwhelming. I barely ever noticed monsters being Dazed, and when they were, Mistrust shut them down too. The healers barely lasted 2 seconds against my target calls (i.e. when I wanted them to die, they collapsed in 2s). There was only one time I saw Deep Wound Extended, and that was when half my team was dead. The rest of the conditions that I brought might as well not be there. Balls weren't common enough to support EC, which the Mesmer casts even if he can't get anyone else in the AoE. I also changed targets a fair bit, enough to negate Dazed. It didn't help that I had to sacrifice some staples of my teambuild (e.g. 10 spec Fast Casting, Fire Eles, Painful Bond) to bring builds that synergized with EC. Deaths happened a lot more often, although kill speed was only mildly affected (LoS sucks though).

Verdict: too much effort for too little return, and might as well stick to standard builds.